Unfortunately, we haven't been seeing eye-to-eye with the folks who are holding their seminar here this week. There have been a few specific issues but the frustration basically boils down to a cynical aversion that we have towards the very up-front, confrontational method of evangelism that they are learning in the course here. Our intern Kremena just accepted the Lord today... again... at the persistent insistence of one of their leaders.
Most of the staff and volunteers here (of a variety of nationalities and backgrounds) chafe at what seems to be a numbers-game strategy of evangelism...
They track the number of folks that they approach, how many are willing to talk and what are the results of the conversation (apparently Kerch has no less than 24 people not willing to chat about their salvation with a stranger on the street - a current Ukrainian record). Further, if someone seems more interested in a debate than in the set of prepared questions and answers, they need to be cut off so that the evangelist can move on (ie. "not wasting their time" - that's a direct quote from a lecture) to the next victim... err, heathen.... err, perspective salvation prayer sayer.
Despite my serious skepticism of their methods, I think one of the root causes of my cynicism is actually my own feelings of guilt. Techniques aside, they are out there doing it passionately without embarrassment or shame. I am not. I'm doing stuff to be sure, but not with that unhindered drive and focus.
I don't want to do exactly what they're doing - I think in many cases it can do more harm than good to beat someone over the head with your faith. However, these are folks who are sharing their stories, their faith and the gospel (albeit in a very cookie-cutter, formulaic way).
Kremena says I shouldn't feel this guilt because these people are learning to make general nuisances of themselves with very little in the way of relationship to offer.
What do you guys think? Can you be jealous of a persons passion while thinking their efforts are foolish or even counter-productive?
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I think God desires us all to to passionate about sharing his word and being a light to those around us. But i agree with you. "Bible thumping" or hitting people over the head with it is not the way to go. God wants disciples not converts (for lack of better word). people who will live passionatly for him not people who will pray a prayer and have no lasting effect. which from what i have seen usually results from the example you were talking about. its definitly not a numbers game. and people respond way better or relationship then through that we share the Gospel through the way we live and when necessary using words and Bible. (a quote by someone) so ya matt i agree with you!! :o)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous THFC fan says:
ReplyDeleteI don't think that you can make a blanket statement either way. Personally, I would not respond to heavy-handedness and in general I don't think our culture over here does either. However, I just talked to a guy a few days ago who when young was saved along with his brother and mother at a hell fire and brimstone Baptist church service. I doubt they would have responded to a "love" message. They are now very strong/passionate/loving believers in adulthood.
Both can work. It just depends on the situation. Bottom line is, when you talk about "techniques" being right or wrong, you're really minimizing God in the whole process. God will work in whatever way He wants through you, regardless of you (or even in spite of you). I would say most of the time it has nothing to do with you and all to do with God.
Slick,
ReplyDeleteI made this point same point when I was discussing it with Kremena (AKA 'Second Time Saved'). There's no accounting for how God works to bring people to himself and he can use any method. Her contention was that for every 1 person who might respond favorably, there might be 10 who are completely put off by it - perhaps even making a negative impact.
If that's true, I can't think that this is a good thing, right?
I see accosting people on the street in groups of 3 or 4 as a different thing than a strong church service. If you're at church you have to expect that you're being told how it is... you can't complain that the pastors preaching death and destruction since that's what we deserve for our sinful nature.
Hearing the same message when you're just trying to pick up some milk after a hard day of work is another thing.
I guess the best way to decide is to look at how Christ reached out to people. He was decidedly understanding of where people were and never followed a prepackaged number- dominated formula.
I also wondered if their methods are more offensive to us as 'regular' Christians than it might be to those who are being approached.
I just talked to a guy who was approached by some from this group downtown last night and he promised to let me know how they came across to him and his friends. In my initial conversation with him, I got the impression that it didn't go well.
I'll report back...
Well, here goes...Having taken a first hand role in both types of ministry discussed - cold turkey straight up bible thumping and the slower, more relationship based evangelism - my preference is definately for the latter. Like others though, I agree that both have their place.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with their passion, or tactics - but what's lacking is their compassion (or so it seems electronically from thousands of miles away). The whole point of evangelism is to share God's word and the beautiful gift of salvation - not another notch in my gun belt of crowns of glory!
In "christianese", its called "planting a seed." I may not see results today, this week, or ever - but C.S. Lewis wrote "once you know the truth, you are no longer free to ignore it." Once that seed (truth) is planted, it may lay dormant for years, but it may one day grow.
Sharing God and Jesus' sacrafice isn't a zero sum game - it is a commandment. Regardless of style, the obedience is in the effort, not the outcome. Talking to people about God, love, loss, etc. - is all a process of information and demonstrated love (biblical or personal).
Hang it there Matt, you're doing good work! I look forward to the update.
Jesus is into relationships. His love and life is His example.
ReplyDeleteI am assuming this group are westerners. All coming to another religious culture ie. orthodoxy, need some simple training before they get in the field so that as they make
in roads as relationships are built. God does the saving, not man.
I personally believe the numbers game and Bible thumping does not give glory to God. And that is what we really are to be about.
so, Matt, I am in total agreement with you. By the way, you are very passionate for the Lord, but not the way that ?they are?.
Great job to you and Sara. Love you, Rosanna
Ok, I have the update but I feel it's only fair to clear a few things up.
ReplyDeleteThe people involved in this seminar are all Ukrainians, save one American guy who is doing some of the teaching (but no actual evangelization). At least some portion of the men are converted mafia - judging by the nature of their visible tattoos - and many more probably came out of very destructive lifestyles. They know about grace; they know first-hand about the power of the gospel.
Ok... that said, here is what I was told about an experience with a group of them. They walked up and asked if they could ask 2 further questions: 1. If you died today, would you go to heaven? and 2. Why?
Upon answering these questions (the answers to which were recorded on a tally sheet), they were asked a few more related clarifying questions. After only a few minutes, the evangelists asked if they could pray FOR these young men and proceeded to do so without waiting for a response. They then asked if the boys to repeat after them in praying "the prayer."
Only after this did they ask for names or introduce themselves.
I understand that these are only pupils and as such, not expected to have the process down, but I find this type of evangelism hard to swallow. This is especially true when I've been working to show Christ to this specific guy in a way that doesn't seem weird and creepy.
I figure they checked off that 3 young men prayed the prayer but really, how were lives affected for the Kingdom? Did they plant a seed? I don't see how - the Gospel doesn't seem to have been presented.
As I said from the start, I'm a bit jealous of their passion and conviction but there are aspects of this particular methodology that disturb me. Either way, it's the Lord's work in hearts that makes real change and we're just blessed that He let's us along for the ride.
Regardless of how you feel about this seminar, please pray for the success of their efforts. It's more important that people receive the grace of our Savior than that I'm right about how it's supposed to happen.
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ReplyDeleteThanks for more information about what they’re doing Matty. That’s a little bit more cringe-worthy!
ReplyDeleteIt doesn’t sound like this group understands what salvation means/is. Do they believe that if they pray for someone or someone repeats certain words despite what they believe in their heart that they’ll be saved? Also, it sounds much more self-serving then I originally “assumed”. My assumption was that they were approaching this in a somewhat appropriate way yet it was confrontational/business like just because that’s the way “cold-calling” is.
You bring up a good point with your question though. I realize it’s not what you were exactly referring to, but it might help you think through the bigger issue of evangelism. To answer your question, if 1 truly gets saved and 10 get turned off by it, is it worth it or is it the right “way”? I don’t that’s a question we can answer nor do I think that’s the right question to ask. I think the right question for us to ask is if evangelism is being done in a way that is consistent with what we find in the Bible, is God honoring, respectful, etc etc…and then let the chips fall where they may. I realize that’s not what you were saying (you were saying that what they are doing is turning people off) but again, whether or not we are going to turn people off or offend them by simply talking about God isn’t the real question. Does that make sense? What I mean is that the result shouldn’t be the measure of the method. Jesus himself may have only converted 1 in 10 while he walked the Earth.
Everyone here has made really good points. To add to it all We really must be "prayed up and fasted up" so we are ready at any given moment to do whatever God tells us. God calls us to live passionate lives for him and through that even people will notice that we are different. We must be able to hear God's voice and in whatever way he tells us to share the message of the kingdom then we will be ready. Who knows some people may need a beating over the head ;o) and some simply need love. Only God knows what each person needs so we need to listen to him. After all he is doing all the work, we can by no soulish effort do anything but by the Holy Spirit in us!!
ReplyDeleteGod bless you all!! and Matt and Sarah you both are amazing and keep doing the work God has for you!! You are doing an awesome job!!! Abundant blessings to you both!!
I have been in this situation in Ukraine and I understand your feelings. In my experience, what I first thought was passion in people, turned out in most cases to be impassioned guilt and an underlying belief in faith by works and not by grace. That was what was driving them in the end. This added up to a lot of problems in the end and a lot of people who weren't assured of their salvation and did not understand the gospel fully.
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